Political Thread [3] - CLOSED

THREAD CLOSED

Touch screen voting machines in Florida

Bush, Kerry Trade National Security Barbs

New Study Finds Media Favored Kerry in First Half of October

60 MINS PLANNED BUSH MISSING EXPLOSIVES STORY FOR ELECTION EVE

Shock Jock Stern Crosses Swords with FCC's Powell, [audio tape] time index 32:14

Tom, forget about WMD, It was known that there wasn't any, and the troops
never searched to find any. In fact there was some, known by all, but the
US troops forgot to protect it. They didn't forgot to protect the pipe lines
though.

You have a selective memory: the troops all wore chemical/biological protective gear because they believed there were WMD!

God! bush is and had always been in oil business, don't you guys makes the
link. Same in Afganistan, 9/11 been the best reasons to go there, put a
puppet in order to finally sign agreement for the Caspian sea pipe lines.
Do you really believe it was to remove the taliban ? HAHAHA what the US did
when they took control of the contry ? nothing. Bush even made business with
them.

His family has been in the oil business: in America, you are not convicted for what others in your family have done--would you like to be responsible for your father's sins? Your statement is irrelevant, and it assumes the President is acting merely for money--that ignores the history of this conflict and WHO STARTED IT.

This is all about oil !!! It has nothing to do with terrorist. Bush war
on terror is working... It made american scared so he could do what he wants
for the bush familly and friends interrests. Bush is not working for the good
of americans peoples, but for his own and those who are doing business with, the saudis.

And what about all the treaty the US has violate since 9/11 ?
The Abu Prisons, the cuban prison of shame, where people are there just
because they were dressed like bin laden, Transfer of prisoneer, etc.
The list is very very long.

What treaty? The Geneva conventions? It has been pretty well established that they do not apply to criminal terrorists, who are not members of established national armies.

I don't know what kind of information you have in the states, are the media
controlled ? Ten's of Thousands of innocent people died for nothing because
him, Irak has never posed a threat to the US, none a single american never
been killed by Irakis before he invaded Irak. Now those Irakis, people who
are born there, on THEIR land are fighting the invadors, but the media calls
them insurgent. How pathetics is that. Could you just please understand that
your army has attacked that country !

The media here (mostly) hate Bush, but even they can not get away with the false information you have falmed me with in your post..

In Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Norway, name them, bush would
never ever ever be reelected. He would be kicked out by a majority of 90%
I just don't understand how bush could still be at 50% in the polls. Polls
that are false anyway... The american polls takes people randomly, it does
not represent anything. In Europe the polls reflect the reality of the
population.

When Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, or Norway lose 3,000 innocent civilians in an UNPROVOKED act of murder, then maybe they might see Bush's actions differently. We came to the aid of France, Britain, and other European countries when they were being attacked . . . where were YOU, after our disasterous attack? Complaining about mistreatment of murderers and terrorists.

How is this possible. Could it be that 50% of american are as stupid, arrogant
and blind as he is ? Could it be that 50% of americans has the same cowboy
mentallity of we have the biggest army, we are the best, our way of life is
the best and we do what we want, even if our best friends (Canada, France, etc)
says it is wrong, because it is wrong. Could it be that 50% of americans
are so unaducated that they can't make the difference between arabs, muslims ?
Could it be that 50% of americans never asked themselves why they have been
attacked on 9/11. This mentality won't make it in a long run, it just can't
continue like that. I wish all americans could ear what the world think of
them, its a shame.

I hear what the world thinks, and it's a shame that they don't stand up to the real criminals here--who behead civilians for the crime of building Iraq's power system, and kidnap the female Iraqi head of CARE..

And stop spending billions of dollars for the war on terror. Its useless !
(except for the war industries...lol) Any intelligent will tell thet guided
missiles, B52, etc could not do anything to stop terrorism. The only solution
is to start respect other, and not only see the world as a business oportunity.

We will, and should, spend what it takes to make the world (including you ungrateful whiners) safe again. Don't you worry about our spending, even though you will benefit..

I have to stop here, this subject really gets me out of my mind. I use to calm
down by thinking that the other 50% of american could make the difference one day.

That was my flame of the day.

Here's my flame in return..


____________

Finally- overcoming years of blocked initiatives and federal interference, a state of the union gets it on the ballot to completely decriminalize marijuana, produce it, package it, tax it, and distribute it like any other commodity to adults. It had to be Alaska, The only place left in the US where personal freedom is serious business.

Alaskans for sane marijuana policy

Dulce et decorum est. My 200th post.

>>Tom, forget about WMD, It was known that there wasn't any, and the troops never searched to find any. In fact there was some, known by all, but the US troops forgot to protect it. They didn't forgot to protect the pipe lines though.

>You have a selective memory: the troops all wore chemical/biological protective gear because they believed there were WMD!

Your memory is just as hazy - We supplied the hazmat suits in Desert Storm, but didn't even give them bullet-proof vests this time. I'm still astonished that families were able to acquire military-grade material from eBay.

I wonder if I can get military-grade rifles, too?

>>God! bush is and had always been in oil business, don't you guys makes the link. Same in Afganistan, 9/11 been the best reasons to go there, put a puppet in order to finally sign agreement for the Caspian sea pipe lines. Do you really believe it was to remove the taliban ? HAHAHA what the US did when they took control of the contry ? nothing. Bush even made business with them.

>His family has been in the oil business: in America, you are not convicted for what others in your family have done--would you like to be responsible for your father's sins? Your statement is irrelevant, and it assumes the President is acting merely for money--that ignores the history of this conflict and WHO STARTED IT.

We started it - Do you remember when I said "The straw that broke Usama bin-Laden's back was the stationing of female troops in Saudi Arabia and that the American troops were stationed more densely at oil stations than in Kuwait"? Probably not since your memory is so selectively Republican.

>>This is all about oil !!! It has nothing to do with terrorist. Bush war on terror is working... It made american scared so he could do what he wants for the bush familly and friends interrests. Bush is not working for the good of americans peoples, but for his own and those who are doing business with, the saudis.

Thank you for saying "peoples", Marc - You're the only one who gets it right by pointing out our plurality. Merci de mon coeur.

>>And what about all the treaty the US has violate since 9/11 ? The Abu Prisons, the cuban prison of shame, where people are there just because they were dressed like bin laden, Transfer of prisoneer, etc. The list is very very long.

>What treaty? The Geneva conventions? It has been pretty well established that they do not apply to criminal terrorists, who are not members of established national armies.

You forget that the law protects all - Even the accused. The best way to regain the trust and moral-high road that you and I want to take is to work within the confines of ethics, and treat the prisoners as if they were American citizens that had been arrested, giving them reasonable doubt, a full and fair trial, and allowing them due process. This is the high road! You don't have to like your enemies, but you must treat them with respect even if only because they breathe the same air as you do.

The Irish, Israelis, and Spaniards have terrorists too, and they are not as maltreated as we mistreat our own citizens who are incarcerated for the "crime" of being Muslim. Now just imagine being in our real enemy's position - "If I am arrested and the Americans abuse petty foot-soldiers, then what prevents them from sending me to Damascus to have information and fingernails extracted?"

You cannot surrender under that mindset. Death or Victory, but never surrender.

>>I don't know what kind of information you have in the states, are the media controlled ? Ten's of Thousands of innocent people died for nothing because him, Irak has never posed a threat to the US, none a single american never been killed by Irakis before he invaded Irak. Now those Irakis, people who are born there, on THEIR land are fighting the invadors, but the media calls them insurgent. How pathetics is that. Could you just please understand that your army has attacked that country !

>The media here (mostly) hate Bush, but even they can not get away with the false information you have falmed me with in your post..

Bullshit, and you know it. May I remind you that the media will do whatever it takes to make money - After all, media is a business, and businesses die without revenue. "Give the people what they think they want" reasons the media industry, "and they'll keep subscribing to my content and my advertisers will be happy". The people who create the content (read: artists) have never been against a candidate as they are now - Even the Viet-nam protests are pale by comparison. And it is these artists who create the content that gets distributed by your precious Disney, Time Warner, News Corp., Columbia, Infinity, et al. ad nauseum.

When it comes to accuracy, Fahrenheit 9/11 is the only film, video, book, magazine, newspaper, blog, or any form of communication that has not been sued over factual content. It is beyond scrutiny. I suggest you watch it, then ask yourself why it won Palm d'Ore, the most prestigious and recognized prize for the cinematographic art. Oscars are meaningless.

As for Marc's "false information", I would like to see evidence as such. Confession: I have enjoyed spending the last few hours annihilating your position, and I expect that falsities in Marc's statements, if any, will bring me much joy as well.

Off topic: I would also recommend that everyone watch Before the Rain before their next post. Excellent film.

>>In Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, Norway, name them, bush would never ever ever be reelected. He would be kicked out by a majority of 90% I just don't understand how bush could still be at 50% in the polls. Polls that are false anyway... The american polls takes people randomly, it does not represent anything. In Europe the polls reflect the reality of the population.

>When Canada, France, Britain, Germany, Spain, or Norway lose 3,000 innocent civilians in an UNPROVOKED act of murder, then maybe they might see Bush's actions differently. We came to the aid of France, Britain, and other European countries when they were being attacked . . . where were YOU, after our disasterous attack? Complaining about mistreatment of murderers and terrorists.

Decency would require that the Jihad be directed against the State, not its citizens. On this I can agree. But "innocent"? Ignorance and indifference does not equate with innocence. If we made it our cause to ensure the life, liberty, opportunity, justice, dissent, property, equality, fraternity, health, and financial well-being of our fellow Human Beings, then we could claim innocence, for we would have been working in the name of Humanity.

Here are some innocent people. Here are some more. Here are none, because they got compensated to surrender their lives at any given moment.

Belgium, Bulgaria, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Turkey, and the United Kingdom did not idle by as you accuse, but rallied with us in Afghanistan - Let me refresh your dusty memory banks with the exact quote from the then-Secretary General of NATO Robertson "An attack on one is an attack on all." When it came time for action in Afghanistan, NATO was united. It took the United States and Iraq to divide it.

For the record, I was in Santiago where the deaths were condoned (Pentagon) and condemned (Manhattan). I spent the morning consoling the victims of 1973, and the irony was not lost when the victims came to console me.

>>How is this possible. Could it be that 50% of american are as stupid, arrogant and blind as he is ? Could it be that 50% of americans has the same cowboy mentallity of we have the biggest army, we are the best, our way of life is the best and we do what we want, even if our best friends (Canada, France, etc) says it is wrong, because it is wrong. Could it be that 50% of americans are so unaducated that they can't make the difference between arabs, muslims ? Could it be that 50% of americans never asked themselves why they have been attacked on 9/11. This mentality won't make it in a long run, it just can't continue like that. I wish all americans could ear what the world think of them, its a shame.

>I hear what the world thinks, and it's a shame that they don't stand up to the real criminals here--who behead civilians for the crime of building Iraq's power system, and kidnap the female Iraqi head of CARE..

You may hear what the world thinks, but you don't listen to what the world says, let alone what the Iraqis want. They are desperate to get rid of us from their land - You know that. The greater, longer, and more violent our presence, the greater, longer, and more violent their response.

Here's a temporary solution: UN Aid. We haven't airlifted any food, clothing, building materials, water, or medical supplies, since the military call-backs, and it was the United Nations that was ready, willing, and able to supply it. Without the US presence, the UN could have succeeded. If you don't believe me, then see what has happened to Médecins Sans Frontières in Afghanistan - They have been forced to withdraw because US soldiers were escorting doctors, thereby suggesting to the locals that MSF and the US were in league. MSF had been in present in Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion, survived the Taliban, and were shot at only when the US soldiers showed up.

Was it coincidence? Or was it corrolation? No - This was causality.

>>And stop spending billions of dollars for the war on terror. Its useless ! (except for the war industries...lol) Any intelligent will tell thet guided missiles, B52, etc could not do anything to stop terrorism. The only solution is to start respect other, and not only see the world as a business oportunity.

>We will, and should, spend what it takes to make the world (including you ungrateful whiners) safe again. Don't you worry about our spending, even though you will benefit..

If you truly want to secure the world, then you will have to learn how to make the world content without weapons. No culture, people, nation, or state will roll over to Justice (let alone Democracy or capitalism) via operssion or invasion. It took us a decade to reformulate post-atomic Japan, and even so we needed Hirohito to revoke his hereditary claim and demand the populace to comply with the invader's force. Such is not the case in Iraq.

In the years between the invasion of Kuwait an the invasion of Iraq, did we work to promote our ideals peacefully? How did we teach the significance of the respect for lives, for our liberties, and our aspirations of happiness? What examples of equality, fraternity, justice can you cite? I keep finding extensions of restrictions and weelky missile attacks.

When we sacrifice justice, mercy, and dissent for our own property, health, and prosperity, the case is made clear to those who we seek to convert to the American way of life - Screw over your compatriot, make money, and leave a mess.

Above all else, Man needs consistency, productivity, power, and procreation. A Man without consistency cannot plan his futures in chaos. A Man without productiviy spends his idle time laying blame. A Man without power bemoans his lack of presence. A Man without procreation has not assured future generations. Deny any Man any part of this, his frustration will turn to anger, and he will lash against those who have his lacking trait. And what entity has more of this than us?

I have the patience and dedication needed not only to clean up your mess, but to wait out past exhaustion of nerve and sinew until the foundations of all ideologies are conveyed to the Iraqi population. Only with information, knowledge, and wisdom can any population decide their own fate. We have never had the right to interfere with the manifestation of the destiny of any people, and though I am tired from begging forgiveness for our aggressions ("They know not what they do"), I know for certain that all that is needed is a good example to exhibit as evidence in order help them choose their future.

As for the cost, you must be some accountant, because all I see for my generation is the red ink left by your generation. You and the illustrious party you dare defend have not only shortchanged today's pill-popping baby-boomers turned-Senior-Citizens, but sacrified tomorrow's wallet in the name of instant gratification that is "Security". Consider the following data:

> Finally- overcoming years of blocked initiatives and federal interference, a
> state of the union gets it on the ballot to completely decriminalize
> marijuana, produce it, package it, tax it, and distribute it like any other
> commodity to adults. It had to be Alaska, The only place left in the US where
> personal freedom is serious business.
>
> <a> href="http://www.regulatemarijuanainalaska.org/initiative/index.html">Alaskans
> for sane marijuana policy[/url]
>
>
It won't happen, Federal Law will prohibit it, It might pass but will be tied up
in court for years.
____________

Official claims Russians may have taken Iraq explosives

ABCNEWS HOLDS TERROR WARNING VIDEO...

...GIVES TAPE TO FBI, CIA

VIDEO CAPTURES W. BUSH FLIPPING BIRD IN 90s

All i can say is Joeseph Goebbles would have loved you! check out http://www.psywarrior.com/Goebbels.html i believe GOEBBELS' PRINCIPLES OF PROPAGANDA no. 6 covers Farenheit/911 among others.

I've also wathced Leni Riefenstahl's Triumph des Willens, D. W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation, and Sergei Eisenstein's Bronenosets Potyomkin. Propaganda makes good film, y'know - But Fahrenheit 9/11 spent more time, moeny, and effort than anything in recent history in the pursuit of accuracy. If Moore were lying, then where are the slander, defamation, or libel suits?

As far as the arguments about the war being about Oil; tell me why America refuses to buy oil from the world's 2nd largest oil producing country..Iran?

That is an extraordinarily good question!

It is also convenient for people to forget that there were 13 years of failed diplomacy before this took place. Almost daily violent enforcement of the no-fly zones. Its amazing how short peoples memories are.

It is also convenient for people to forget that no president made any diplomatic effort to come to a solution since the invasion of Kuwait. Each president since Bush (I) used Iraq as scapegoat. The same can be said for Cuba, Lybia, N. Korea... It's the American Way of Political Life. :-(

On a personal note about WMD in the region: I was in Kuwait starting in the middle of the conflict working as a civilian. i carried a gas-mask for the first 2 weeks i was there and spoke to my friends during SCUD attacks having to hang up with them on the phone so they could put on their protective gear. Considering the former leader of Iraq's track record i was glad to have the equipment real threat or percieved.

But Kuwait was invaded, and I can appreciate your situation. But 9/11 and Iraq have no common thread.

Let me make sure I make my position clear: It is good to see Saddam removed from power and it is good that there are no Bio-/Chemo-/Nuclear weapons in Iraq. That said, you cannot expect all Iraqis to jump at Democracy instantly after invasion, Saddam is not being taken to The Hauge for war crimes, and all we have succeeded is in pushing his cronies underground.

Victory by fiat of W is failure worth propagandizing.