Political Thread [5] - CLOSED


log in

Advanced search

Message boards : Politics : Political Thread [5] - CLOSED

1 · 2 · 3 · 4 . . . 16 · Next
Author Message
N/A
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 01
Posts: 3718
Credit: 93,649
RAC: 0
Message 46626 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 6:33:15 UTC
Last modified: 16 Dec 2004, 22:14:27 UTC

This thread is now closed. Please continue on to Political Thread [6]

This thread continues from here [4], which was the continuation from here [3], which was spawned from here [2], becuase we ran out of space here [1]
Standard disclaimer applies.

Profile Misfit
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 21 Jun 01
Posts: 21790
Credit: 2,510,901
RAC: 0
United States
Message 46630 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 6:35:19 UTC - in response to Message 46626.

Damn... good thing I cut/paste from multiple windows NA, I was starting a poli 5 then this popped up. :P

Profile Misfit
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 21 Jun 01
Posts: 21790
Credit: 2,510,901
RAC: 0
United States
Message 46632 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 6:40:24 UTC - in response to Message 46626.
Last modified: 27 Dec 2004, 3:43:53 UTC

> Standard disclaimer applies.

DISCLAIMER: The opinions expressed are solely those of the individual and do not necessarily have your approval. By reading these posts, you agree that you are doing so by your own choosing and acknowledge that you realize these posts may or may not be actual posts of politicians and are hosted and made publicly available by Setiweb/Setiathome AND/OR another website and therefore that neither SETI, BOINC, BERKELEY, all members thereof, the other users of this board, nor the person who posted these opinions, are responsible for the content or any offense or damage that may result as a consequence to following said beliefs to you, your family, church members, property, or pets.

NO SPAM/TROLLING ALLOWED!

N/A
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 01
Posts: 3718
Credit: 93,649
RAC: 0
Message 46636 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 6:50:34 UTC - in response to Message 46632.

Profile Qui-Gon
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 15 May 99
Posts: 2910
Credit: 6,670,208
RAC: 2,323
United States
Message 46644 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 7:31:10 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2004, 7:46:38 UTC

In response to my post:
> It has been my experience that in many countries a level of anti-semitism
> exists that is not recognised, simply because it is so widespread--it is taken
> for granted as the truth. I think this is the basis for Luca's disbelief in
> my statements.

Marc wrote:
> I had the same feeling as Luca about that meadle east history web site.
> I don't remember who sais that history is always written by the winners
> of a war, but it is so true. In order to have a clear picture of the
> Palestinian - Israely conflict I would try to avoid a history page written
> by an Israeli. And to be honnest I am kind of tired of all these anti-semitic
> crap, Actually I don't care about religion and color of skin. It's like hate
> crime, that's bullshit. If I am very critical toward Israel it's not because
> I hate the jews. Every time someone says something about them it always come
> to anti semitic.

Marc and Luca, you agree that both sides have attacked eachother, yet when it somes to Israel's justification for their action (and America's too), you seem to take an opposing view (with America, you claim unequal support of Israel). If it's not anti-semitism, then why do you always take the anti-Israli view? I have not heard an explanation from you yet, so my assumption is anti-semitism is the reason. Even the Midease history page you have read is too biased in your opinion, then, show me another authoritative source.

[Edit]: And Marc, you havn't cited any errors you found on the Mideast history site; you are just complaining that it is written by an Israeli (who, for all you know, may be a liberal peace activist). But you keep putting up links to left-wing "news" articles that slant the story to make America look bad. If your only disagreement with the Mideast history site is that it is biased, then to be consistent, you should stop linking to your own biased sites.
____________

N/A
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 01
Posts: 3718
Credit: 93,649
RAC: 0
Message 46648 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 7:43:33 UTC - in response to Message 46630.
Last modified: 15 Nov 2004, 7:44:06 UTC

Yup - 300 posts is the magic number. It was taking me a good 15 seconds to download everything, and I've got 192KB/s (1536Kb/s). Maybe we should circulate a "standard disclaimer" page...?

Luca Pacioli
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 24 Oct 04
Posts: 110
Credit: 20,637
RAC: 0
Argentina
Message 46750 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 15:52:49 UTC
Last modified: 15 Nov 2004, 15:53:36 UTC

Mr Utzig:

> You are a philosopher who, seemingly, likes to announce the fact and likes to > goad people - though to what end I haven't made up my mind - though I suspect > it is for personal pleasure.***

My objective isn´t an end. It´s a path. I try to make all of us discuss important facts to reach to it´s roots. I´m always emphasizing the critic part or reason, instead of fundamentation part.

>> I don´t want to hurt jewish...as much as I don´t want to hurt anyone else.
> ***Perhaps not physically, but my impression from the way your write is that you don't mind hurting peoples' feelings.***

In ID: 45754 I was sorry for the way I had irrupted in this board.

>> I don´t want to distinguish them in any way: so, I want to be able to talk of them as I talk about Americans, Frenchs, etc.
> ***Sorry, that is not my impression of the way you write, especially towards Americans. I am not saying that I totally disagree with what you write nor am I saying that I totally agree with what you write but I do believe you only write to be provocative.

From ID: 46473 I have been -I think- more respectful to American´s ideas and ways of expression. This is because I have found smarter and more tolerant Americans than I was hoping to find. It happens that I have always defended you in my country, my argument was "if they rule the world, they must be intelligent". The argument of my mates was "they are all as Homer Simpson: fat and stupid. But they are ruled themselves by a staff of intelligent jewish (like Cheney) that benefits when the country is running well". I have always disagreed with this, but from Bush´s reelection...I have started to think that Osama is right when says you deserve terror for approving Bush´s actions. Of course he´s not right for me, because I won´t like anybody to be hurt, but I´m trying you to understand my position.
Regarding the feelings I have hurted...sorry, but the facts I have mentioned recently forced me. When my anger for Bush passed, I started to be more respectful.
Last argument: I don´t always write what I wanted to because of this language. In addition, I don´t know how do you undestand what I wrote. We have de hardware and the software to connect to each other...but we don´t have the linguistical way of understanding, besides we were born in different cultures.
____________
"Raggio spezza, amista lunga"

Luca Pacioli
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 24 Oct 04
Posts: 110
Credit: 20,637
RAC: 0
Argentina
Message 46752 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 16:04:26 UTC - in response to Message 46644.

> Marc and Luca, you agree that both sides have attacked eachother, yet when it
> somes to Israel's justification for their action (and America's too), you seem
> to take an opposing view (with America, you claim unequal support of Israel).
> If it's not anti-semitism, then why do you always take the anti-Israli view?
> I have not heard an explanation from you yet, so my assumption is
> anti-semitism is the reason. Even the Midease history page you have read is
> too biased in your opinion, then, show me another authoritative source.
>
> [Edit]: And Marc, you havn't cited any errors you found on the Mideast history
> site; you are just complaining that it is written by an Israeli (who, for all
> you know, may be a liberal peace activist). But you keep putting up links to
> left-wing "news" articles that slant the story to make America look bad. If
> your only disagreement with the Mideast history site is that it is biased,
> then to be consistent, you should stop linking to your own biased sites.

Tom: I have explained the history theory I was referring to. There are always multiple positions fot the explanation of a fact. I have taken palestinian way because you have taken the isreali one. If I have entered a site where everybody is saying "kill jews, it´s all their fault", I would say "you are also responsible". (I have to recognize that I always tend to defend palestinians...because they are less powerful than isreali-american coalition)

Regarding your history, I have said it´s pro jewish because in a book as "Proxim Orient" (my translation from spanish) by Bernard Lewis (a west-winged American) you can see a more objective history!
This is the link to the description of the book (in Spanish):
http://www.ed-critica.es/detalles_libro_sinopsis.php?ID=76
____________
"Raggio spezza, amista lunga"

Luca Pacioli
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 24 Oct 04
Posts: 110
Credit: 20,637
RAC: 0
Argentina
Message 46753 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 16:08:06 UTC

NeoAmsterdam: sorry, but I dond´t understand your ID: 46623
____________
"Raggio spezza, amista lunga"

N/A
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 01
Posts: 3718
Credit: 93,649
RAC: 0
Message 46852 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 21:45:56 UTC - in response to Message 46753.
Last modified: 15 Nov 2004, 21:46:45 UTC

<lang=es>Lo que dije fue que se supone que aprendemos de la historia. Si la historia me enseñó algo, es que la repetición de ella es inevitable. Y como saqué un 8, ¡no me acusen de fallarla! :)</lang>

Let's face it, even I've been accused of being anti-Semitic when I've made anti-Sharon statements, but mostly when I say that the US has coddled Israel like a baby - nurturing it from war to established state. Now that Israel has proven it can wipe its own ass (read: it's not going to disappear into the Mediterranean anytime soon), we should start working on our next success story (read: Palestine).

Profile Qui-Gon
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 15 May 99
Posts: 2910
Credit: 6,670,208
RAC: 2,323
United States
Message 46862 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 22:39:25 UTC - in response to Message 46852.
Last modified: 15 Nov 2004, 22:41:39 UTC

> Let's face it, even I've been accused of being anti-Semitic when I've made
> anti-Sharon statements, but mostly when I say that the US has coddled Israel
> like a baby - nurturing it from war to established state. Now that Israel has
> proven it can wipe its own ass (read: it's not going to disappear into the
> Mediterranean anytime soon), we should start working on our next success story
> (read: Palestine).
>

I agree. But if there is some way to have these two exist in peace that would be preferable. It would also help if the neighbors of these two states would butt out.

P.S. At least I don't think you are anti-semitic because sometimes you give coherent reasons for your position (even if I don't agree).
____________

Profile Qui-Gon
Volunteer tester
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 15 May 99
Posts: 2910
Credit: 6,670,208
RAC: 2,323
United States
Message 46863 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 22:44:24 UTC - in response to Message 46752.

> Tom: I have explained the history theory I was referring to. There are always
> multiple positions fot the explanation of a fact. I have taken palestinian way
> because you have taken the isreali one.

Don't take the opposite side just because it's my view. Explore whether my position may be right, and if you find it is not, then tell me why it is wrong.
____________

N/A
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 01
Posts: 3718
Credit: 93,649
RAC: 0
Message 46867 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 22:53:53 UTC - in response to Message 46862.

...if there is some way to have these two exist in peace that would be preferable. It would also help if the neighbors of these two states would butt out.
The only states with any sound claim to the process are Egypt and Jordan. Mubarak won't do spit, H.M. Abdulla is surrounded by trouble on each border, and we're still waiting on the next PLO Chairman. I guess this period will be like being stuck on pause.

ChinookFoehn
Send message
Joined: 18 Apr 02
Posts: 462
Credit: 24,039
RAC: 0
Message 46870 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 23:02:16 UTC - in response to Message 46750.
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 4:51:19 UTC

N/A
Volunteer tester
Send message
Joined: 18 May 01
Posts: 3718
Credit: 93,649
RAC: 0
Message 46875 - Posted: 15 Nov 2004, 23:27:14 UTC - in response to Message 46870.

>> ...I have always disagreed with this, but from Bush�s reelection...I have started to think that Osama is right when says you deserve terror for approving Bush�s actions.
From 41281: "Your security is not in the hands of Kerry or Bush or al-Qaida. Your security is in your own hands... "
It didn't matter who "won" from Usama's perspective.

>Neither you nor I are citizens of the U.S. and have no direct influence in their election. Indeed we should not even have an indirect influence.
I've never heard anything along those lines before. Could you elaborate?

>...the ability to to discuss/write about a topic without anger is foremost. Is this tenet still correct?
Yes, and I've skirted it numerous times by allowing passion to take the better of me.

>>Last argument: I don�t always write what I wanted to because of this language.
>Then write what you are having problems expressing in Spanish and I, at least, can try to comprehend with my limited Spanish while, I am certain, those who are fluent, would be willing to translate. I am not numbered amongst those, mostly mono-lingual Americans but also many Europeans, who believe only English must be used. Indeed, I upon occasion, write only in German - as NeoAmsterdam occasionally does in Unicode-Spanish.
I consider it a crash-course in foreign languages. There should always someone who you can buddy up with to help translate when the text is terse.

Luca Pacioli
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 24 Oct 04
Posts: 110
Credit: 20,637
RAC: 0
Argentina
Message 46884 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:07:33 UTC - in response to Message 46870.
Last modified: 16 Nov 2004, 0:39:39 UTC

> ***Then why write you approve of terror because you dislike the president of
> the United States? Neither you nor I are citizens of the U.S. and have no
> direct influence in their election. Indeed we should not even have an indirect
> influence.

I don´t approve Osama´s terror because I don´t like terrot. But when I see American citizens approving his president´s actions...I begin to "understand" Osama´s news of retaliation.

> yet, given all that, I would never call for any acts of terrorism against
> the United States of America just because I dislike the president of the
> country, his policies, and the way the U.S. military feels it is above any
> laws and international treaties the U.S. is signatory to when it deals with
> citizens of other countries.***

When you dislike the president´s actions of a democracy you dislike the country. Mostly when he has been recently re-elected and, therefore, his actions have been approved.

> ***From my recollection of the philophopy I was required to take in
> University; the ability to to discuss/write about a topic without anger is
> foremost. Is this tenet still correct?***

As always, it depends on the theory. Irrationalism, for example, wouldn´t say that (and we have another famous examples, as existencialism, nihilism, etc).

> ***Then write what you are having problems expressing in Spanish and I, at
> least, can try to comprehend with my limited Spanish while, I am certain,
> those who are fluent, would be willing to translate. I am not numbered amongst
> those, mostly mono-lingual Americans but also many Europeans, who believe only
> English must be used. Indeed, I upon occasion, write only in German - as
> NeoAmsterdam occasionally does in Unicode-Spanish.***

Believe me, if I can´t translate my feelings into english, if you have a limited Spanish, you won´t be able to understanf all of it´s meaning.

> Yes but I, amongst the others writing here, have the willingness to use our
> intelligence to try to understand - or are you writing that cultural and
> linguistical differences are so great that any attempt to try is doomed to
> fail before the attempt is made?

I appreciate your willingness but, sometimes, I can´t understand my mother...
____________
"Raggio spezza, amista lunga"

ChinookFoehn
Send message
Joined: 18 Apr 02
Posts: 462
Credit: 24,039
RAC: 0
Message 46886 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:11:20 UTC - in response to Message 46875.
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 4:52:19 UTC

Luca Pacioli
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 24 Oct 04
Posts: 110
Credit: 20,637
RAC: 0
Argentina
Message 46887 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:16:54 UTC - in response to Message 46886.

I would like to influence Americans voters: US has influenced my country in many ways. I would only mention that theirs up-star means our down-star.
____________
"Raggio spezza, amista lunga"

Luca Pacioli
Avatar
Send message
Joined: 24 Oct 04
Posts: 110
Credit: 20,637
RAC: 0
Argentina
Message 46888 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:20:12 UTC - in response to Message 46852.

> Lo que dije fue que se supone que aprendemos de
> la historia. Si la historia me enseñó algo, es que la repetición de ella
> es inevitable. Y como saqué un 8, ¡no me acusen de fallarla!
> :)

No necesariamente la historia se repite...los grandes sistemas diseñados por Spengler o Toynbee para "clasificar" las etapas historicas y predecir su evolución fueron denostados a partir de fines de la decada del ´40. De Toynbee se llego a decir que era el mas grande historiador vivo, ahora se dice que fue un fraude científico...
____________
"Raggio spezza, amista lunga"

ChinookFoehn
Send message
Joined: 18 Apr 02
Posts: 462
Credit: 24,039
RAC: 0
Message 46891 - Posted: 16 Nov 2004, 0:27:51 UTC - in response to Message 46884.
Last modified: 17 Dec 2004, 4:53:57 UTC

1 · 2 · 3 · 4 . . . 16 · Next

Message boards : Politics : Political Thread [5] - CLOSED

Copyright © 2014 University of California