> Now sure we all want lower costs and who would not vote for that. What we dont
> want is a distorted market which ends up with a few players who charge
> whatever they damned well please. This is a costly market to get into. New
> startups are fairly rare. As sure as night follows day bandwidth dumping at a
> loss will see NO startups and therefore no consumer choice. That's my view
> anyhow.

From what I've been able to glean (and some of this is guesswork) Cogent is buying dark fiber and running DWDM which lets them push a whole lot more bits through the same facilities.

If that's true, then they aren't "dumping" they are simply doing an amazing job of holding costs down and then pricing aggressively.

I have no idea which of those two scenarios is true, just that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

---

> From what I've been able to glean (and some of this is guesswork) Cogent is
> buying dark fiber and running DWDM which lets them push a whole lot more bits
> through the same facilities.
>
> If that's true, then they aren't "dumping" they are simply doing an amazing
> job of holding costs down and then pricing aggressively.
>
> I have no idea which of those two scenarios is true, just that there is more
> than one way to skin a cat.

Technically, that is true. Some times they cannot maintain their peering ratio requirements, but all is usually well. They're not really losing any more money than anyone else at this game, so they must be doing something right.

Most links are 8 x OC-192 allowing for their 80 gig backbone they reference.

---

...dark fiber and running DWDM...
What are they?

---

> ...dark fiber and running DWDM...
> What are they?
>

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/d/dark_fiber.html

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/W/WDM.html (top one)

---

Thanks, Hammy. I really shoudda've Googled it... feeling kinda lazy...

---

> ...dark fiber and running DWDM...
> What are they?

I didn't follow Hammy's links, but basically....

When a phone company puts in fiber, the actual cost of the fiber is nothing compared to the cost of getting the right-of-way and digging the trench, etc. so if they need a half-dozen fibers, they throw a 48 or 96 fiber bundle in the hole.

The fibers they're going to use are "lit" and the ones that are "dark" can be sold to someone else -- the buyer saves the cost of digging, and if the seller sells enough then they can recover all of their costs.

DWDM is just a way to pack a whole lot of stuff onto the same fiber.

The really short version is: it's a way to move more data for less money.

---

So lay down 64 lines, use one, and lease out the remaining 50 with multiplexing. That way you get at least 100x on the infrastructure investment.

I wasn't familiar with the term "dark", that's all.

---

> So lay down 64 lines, use one, and lease out the remaining 50 with
> multiplexing. That way you get at least 100x on the infrastructure
> investment.
>
> I wasn't familiar with the term "dark", that's all.

The other term is "condo-fiber."

---

> Bonjour je suis en france et je n arrive pas a me connecter au serveur de seti
> une erreur du style "can't connect to server.Error (-16;0)" aparait j'ai
> cherché des reponce et je suis tombé par hasard sur ce site
> quelqun pourait m'expliquer ce qu'il ce passe je me situ a paris et aparament
> j'aurais lu qu'il y a des problemes avec france telecom quelqun pourai
> m'eclairé en francais si possible merci.
>
Salut!. Pardon...Anglais....
Allez http://www.iantighe.com/boincers.htm
Merci et bon chance!
Amities de l'Angleterre !

---

<lang=&quot;fr?&quot;>
Pardon por mon Fran&ccedil;ais (Je parle l&apos;Espagnol et l&apos;Anglais).
BOINC et SETI somme un equip d&apos;tout l&apos;monde - l&apos;langue non est tout important.
Bonne chance con l&apos;proxy?
</lang>

<lang=&quot;en&quot;>
Pardon my French (I speak Spanish and English).
BOINC and SETI is a group of world-wide users - language isn&apos;t as important.
Are you having luck with the proxy?
</lang>

---

> BOINC and SETI is a group of world-wide users - language isn&apos;t as
> important.
> Are you having luck with the proxy?

>
Huh? It is if you have a problem and the solution is in a language you cannot understand. Am I reading you right?

---

> I didn't follow Hammy's links, but basically....
>
> When a phone company puts in fiber, the actual cost of the fiber is nothing
> compared to the cost of getting the right-of-way and digging the trench, etc.
> so if they need a half-dozen fibers, they throw a 48 or 96 fiber bundle in the
> hole.
>
> The fibers they're going to use are "lit" and the ones that are "dark" can be
> sold to someone else -- the buyer saves the cost of digging, and if the seller
> sells enough then they can recover all of their costs.
>
> DWDM is just a way to pack a whole lot of stuff onto the same fiber.
>
> The really short version is: it's a way to move more data for less money.


Well, depends. ;-) I'm building out my own network and on the state highway right-of-way and permit fees are waived (if they exist in the first place). I believe other streets in town just carry a permit fee. If you drive around in a truck and hang it on the poles, there is minimal hardware cost, installation is faster, no digging cost, just as reliable if not moreso, etc. My big cost is probably the fiber itself, with a couple unknown costs, but they shouldn't be much.

---

> So lay down 64 lines, use one, and lease out the remaining 50 with
> multiplexing. That way you get at least 100x on the infrastructure
> investment.
>
> I wasn't familiar with the term "dark", that's all.


Well, now that's getting into some new territory. That's selling wavelengths which requires an equipment buildout to multiplex them together. I've seen gear that can do 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 150, or 300 (I'm sure there's some between) wavelengths. A wavelength can typically carry 2.5gb worth of protocols or 10 gigs worth. Once the gear is out, 10 will be replaced with 40. You can also stack different protocols on the same fiber (OC-48 can coexist with 2x GIGE, with fiberchannel, with 12x FE, etc.). On shorter runs (less than 120km) dark fiber and WDM is the way to go as it costs less to do than buying even a DS-3 circuit, even if small build outs are required. I'm working on finding out how longer runs work out for the small provider (120 miles or so).

---

> Well, depends. ;-) I'm building out my own network and on the state highway
> right-of-way and permit fees are waived (if they exist in the first place). I
> believe other streets in town just carry a permit fee. If you drive around in
> a truck and hang it on the poles, there is minimal hardware cost, installation
> is faster, no digging cost, just as reliable if not moreso, etc. My big cost
> is probably the fiber itself, with a couple unknown costs, but they shouldn't
> be much.
>
Do you have to be licensed to this stuff? Any telecoms provider (voice or data) has to have a govt licence to carry public traffic. You would have to be in the UK as well as get a stack of permissions.

---

> Do you have to be licensed to this stuff? Any telecoms provider (voice or
> data) has to have a govt licence to carry public traffic. You would have to be
> in the UK as well as get a stack of permissions.

That sucks. I've never heard of anything like that in the US, unless you're looking to provide cable TV in a town or you're wanting direct access to the PSTN.

---

> > Do you have to be licensed to this stuff? Any telecoms provider (voice
> or
> > data) has to have a govt licence to carry public traffic. You would have
> to be
> > in the UK as well as get a stack of permissions.
>
> That sucks. I've never heard of anything like that in the US, unless you're
> looking to provide cable TV in a town or you're wanting direct access to the
> PSTN.
>
It really is the land of the free then!

---

> It really is the land of the free then!


Well, I guess I do have to pay to put stuff on the utility poles. Something around $9/year/pole to the utility company that owns it, which is reasonable.

---

OK. Does power running parallel gives problems or is it all fibre?

---

> OK. Does power running parallel gives problems or is it all fibre?


I would deploy all fiber, but you can put coax and twisted pair on them as well fiarly easily. There is a seperation distance, though, to give them room to work, safety, as well as reducing the liklihood of any interference in metal-based systems.

---

drifting off topic..

the rumors in southeast USA, is that the cable companies often 'covertly' put the cables on the poles, then just pay the fines once they are found out.
lets them get service out sooner then waiting for permits etc.

not something i am suggesting trying, Hammy, but just for information.

Micah

---

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