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Simplex0 Send message Joined: 28 May 99 Posts: 124 Credit: 205,874 RAC: 0 |
Es99, How many WMD was found during the inspection done by IAEA? Could it be that the Bush administration did not get the answer the they wanted so they constructed it by using a source that they could manipulate.
The difference is that Bush has much grater power to force all his stupid ideas on the rest of the world than Saddam had.
USA continues its long tradition of supporting and creating marionette regimes in countries to make them support theirs ideas. The regimes cruelty against it own people is nothing the leadership of USA take notice of, as long they don't torture or kill US citizens they don't care. Neither Usa binladen or Saddam would have the impact they had unless they was supported by the USA which they used to be.
Do you think Saddam treated he's own people well during the time USA supported him? Was the Tallibans interested in human rights and treated the people i Afganistan well during the time USA supported Usa binladen?
Is this a statement backed of IAEA or FN?
I hope this mess will be solved by the people of USA and that they chose a leadership that put human rights, environment and science on the first place on the agenda instead of shortsighted greed and intelligent design. It is scary that the worlds leaders are all so silent and that the only leader that has, with any strength, protested against the US gov and their act of fascism. is former president Nelson Mandela. Tomas ID: 208351 ·  |
 Octagon  Send message Joined: 13 Jun 05 Posts: 1418 Credit: 5,250,988 RAC: 109 
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How many WMD was found during the inspection done by IAEA? Could it be that the Bush administration did not get the answer the they wanted so they constructed it by using a source that they could manipulate.[quote] This is a good thing. USA continues its long tradition of supporting and creating marionette regimes in countries to make them support theirs ideas. The regimes cruelty against it own people is nothing the leadership of USA take notice of, as long they don't torture or kill US citizens they don't care. Neither Usa binladen or Saddam would have the impact they had unless they was supported by the USA which they used to be. The USA continues the tradition of looking out for its own interests. The US is not collectively proud of the questionable characters it had to work with to contain Communism, but it was judged (rightly or wrongly) to be the lesser of the evils. There is no reason for the US or any other nation to have a static list of allies and enemies. Is this a statement backed of IAEA or FN? This is just being fecitious. Read the UN resolution and the cease-fire agreement. I hope this mess will be solved by the people of USA and that they chose a leadership that put human rights, environment and science on the first place on the agenda instead of shortsighted greed and intelligent design. The most humane, eco-friendly and scientific people in the world won't do any good if they are all dead. It is scary that the worlds leaders are all so silent and that the only leader that has, with any strength, protested against the US gov and their act of fascism. is former president Nelson Mandela. Look up fascism and you will find that "freedom of the press" and "freedom of religion" and "all people equal before the law" and similar foundations of American jurisprudence don't fit. Just because someone uses force and you don't agree with it does not make it fascist. If you feel comfortable disagreeing in public, then you are definitely not dealing with a fascist. No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much. 
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Hev  Send message Joined: 4 Jun 05 Posts: 1118 Credit: 598,303 RAC: 0 
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The difference is that Bush has much grater power to force all his stupid ideas on the rest of the world than Saddam had. Can you please back up the last statement with some evidence? How is it good that the Bush regime has the means to force all their ideas on the rest of the world? Is that what you believe? ID: 208436 · |
Qui-Gon  Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11
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How many WMD was found during the inspection done by IAEA? Could it be that the Bush administration did not get the answer the they wanted so they constructed it by using a source that they could manipulate. Saddam did not let UN inspectors do what he agreed to after he was beaten back from his conquest of Kuwait. Your argument actually supports my position, since failing to find WMD, because Saddam refused to allow inspections, is a key justification for the war. The difference is that Bush has much grater power to force all his stupid ideas on the rest of the world than Saddam had. For all you say, I am much happier with Bush as my president than the many Iraqis killed and tortured by Iraqi thugs ever were under Saddam. I don't think Bush's ideas are nearly as stupid as you are for making such a statement, but in any case I prefer stupid ideas to murderous acts. USA continues its long tradition of supporting and creating marionette regimes in countries to make them support theirs ideas. The regimes cruelty against it own people is nothing the leadership of USA take notice of, as long they don't torture or kill US citizens they don't care. Neither Usa binladen or Saddam would have the impact they had unless they was supported by the USA which they used to be. The whole idea of the no-fly zones was to try and protect Kurds in the North and Shiites in the South of Iraq, so don't say the U.S. doesn't care about any but U.S. citizens. America has a long, proud tradition of giving aid to countries around the world, in much greater numbers than your country. Do you think Saddam treated he's own people well during the time USA supported him? Was the Tallibans interested in human rights and treated the people i Afganistan well during the time USA supported Usa binladen? First, there was no Taliban when the U.S. supported Bin Laden, it came into existance only after the Soviet puppet regime was ousted. As for Saddam's treatment of his citizens while we supported him, U.S. diplomatic pressure was exerted, but at that time (dictator or not) his government was legitimate and he was under no treaty obligation to comply (like the cease-fire treaty that you seem to ingore). As for why we are fighting in Iraq, Octagon has explained it, I have tried to explain it, you don't seem willing to listen (I say this because you have never disputed these explainations with anything other than a personal opinion). There was not a single reason for the war. You can read the explaination given by Bush, back in October 2002, here. WMD are still a valid reason for the war, not because they were found in large amounts, but because Saddam refused to allow verification teams as he had agreed; Did you read the statement? It cites a former chief weapons inspector of the U.N. who said, "The fundamental problem with Iraq remains the nature of the regime, itself. Saddam Hussein is a homicidal dictator who is addicted to weapons of mass destruction." I hope this mess will be solved by the people of USA and that they chose a leadership that put human rights, environment and science on the first place on the agenda instead of shortsighted greed and intelligent design. You say that you hope the U.S. chooses a leader who puts human rights on the agenda, but you oppose the war in Iraq which does just that! That is just too irrational for me to comprehend, and I have wasted most of my lunch hour answering you, even though it is likely you will not understand a thing I have said. ID: 208456 · |
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Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11
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The difference is that Bush has much grater power to force all his stupid ideas on the rest of the world than Saddam had. Is that a picture of you, Hev? If so, you are a lovely woman. The response, that it is a good thing, seems to me to mean that it is a good thing that Saddam didn't have the power to force his ideas on the rest of the world. What evidence do you need that Saddam should not have had the power to do to the world what he did to his country? ID: 208462 · |
RichaG  Send message Joined: 20 May 99 Posts: 1690 Credit: 19,287,294 RAC: 36
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Darth Dogbytes™ Send message Joined: 30 Jul 03 Posts: 7512 Credit: 2,021,148 RAC: 0
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In your opinion perhaps, not mine. As Dr. Goebels once said, tell a big lie for long enough and it will become the truth. So I ask you this, could you please explain, if these people are not being tortured, what is it that is being done to them that cannot legally be done to them in the United States? I await your answer in rapt anticipation. Account frozen... ID: 208520 · |
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Hev Send message Joined: 4 Jun 05 Posts: 1118 Credit: 598,303 RAC: 0
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The difference is that Bush has much grater power to force all his stupid ideas on the rest of the world than Saddam had. I am sorry to disappoint you but that is not a picture of me. It is a picture of Dolores Ibarurri - La Pasionaria. You will then understand why we will never agree. I am a socialist and believe in social justice for all. And I am still a lovely woman. As for Saddam, of course he was a monster but comparing the power of Saddam Hussein and Iraq to the power of the United States is ludicrous. At the time of the invasion of Iraq the weapons inspectors had not finished their work and asked for more time from the west. But we could continue to go round in circles, I am against the war in Iraq and as has been predicted it has become an unholy mess out there. And the people who pay the price are as always, the civilians. Democracy cannot be imposed from the top, it has to rise up from the people themselves, as it did with your own struggles in the U.S. After all like France you had your own revolution. ID: 208529 · |
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Qui-Gon Send message Joined: 15 May 99 Posts: 2940 Credit: 19,199,902 RAC: 11
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Democracy cannot be imposed from the top, it has to rise up from the people themselves, as it did with your own struggles in the U.S. After all like France you had your own revolution. I think that Japan and Germany, both democracies, might see this differently. I too, believe in justice, but not just when it suits my political position. What do you have to say about justice for Iraqis who are holding free elections, are implementing a new Constitution and have Saddam on trial? What about the terrorists in Iraq who promote suicide bombs that kill Iraqis, and that often are not directed at coalition forces at all? It's easy to sit in your comfortable, safe home and claim to be for social justice, but that social justice should translate into concrete terms, not be a mere slogan. ID: 208546 · |
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RichaG Send message Joined: 20 May 99 Posts: 1690 Credit: 19,287,294 RAC: 36
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Where is your proof there are USA torture prisons in other countries? That is point of the cartoon. There are anon leaks of this from the liberals in the CIA that want to discredit the president, but I have not heard of any proof of it. So you believe it without proof. You fell for the same motto of telling it enough to make you think it is ture. You can never say a falsehood enough to make it true. You just believe the falsehood is true. Red Bull Air Racing Gas price by zip at Seti 
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Octagon Send message Joined: 13 Jun 05 Posts: 1418 Credit: 5,250,988 RAC: 109
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As for Saddam, of course he was a monster but comparing the power of Saddam Hussein and Iraq to the power of the United States is ludicrous. No one said they have roughly equal power, but they are both heads of state, putting them in roughly equal contexts. Imagine the guy with the torture chambers amd the rape rooms and a history of using weapons of mass destruction on civilians being the Commander in Chief of the US armed forces. Anyone who prefers that world to the one in which we live needs to report to the nearest detox center and get off of whatever he or she is smoking. At the time of the invasion of Iraq the weapons inspectors had not finished their work and asked for more time from the west. The disarmament process should have taken weeks. To be generous, say Iraq had logistical problems and might have needed until late 1993 to get everything in order. 1993: no discernable progress 1994: no discernable progress 1995: no discernable progress 1996: no discernable progress 1997: no discernable progress 1998: no discernable progress 1999: no discernable progress 2000: no discernable progress 2001: no discernable progress 2002: no discernable progress A pattern appears to be emerging. The inspectors asked for more time, but to any objective outsider it is obvious that the inspectors were either being outwitted or bought off. All evidence points to the former, which demonstrates a systematic circumvention of the cease-fire agreement. This is not the inspectors' fault: it was incumbent upon Iraq to inventory and destroy the weapons and the inspectors were only supposed to have to audit the process. If you want to read the worst conceivable motivations into the White House, and believe that they are bloodthirty bastards bent on drinking the blood of Iraqi babies, then it is Saddam's fault because all he had to do to stop the invasion was issue the order to have all the WMDs delivered to the inspectors. Those on the Left hold the West's feet to the fire if the least significant clause of a century-old treaty is overlooked or if the least likely side-effect of a national action might harm a squirrel, but when a dictator baldly ignores an international agreement at terrible humanitarian cost to millions of people (Saddam being the one who diverted the Oil for Food aid), well, anyone who punishes him is being naughty. But we could continue to go round in circles, I am against the war in Iraq and as has been predicted it has become an unholy mess out there. Things go wrong in wars. It's because those pesky opponents are trying to win, too. The Bush administration has had some major failing in reacting to change, but the dire predictions of a messy quagmire had nothing whatsoever to do with pre-war intelligence... they were psychological warfare attempting to prevent the US and its allies from enforcing the cease-fire agreements. So that Saddam could stay in power. So that more women could get raped. And the people who pay the price are as always, the civilians. When the American and British troops start using human shields, beheading captives, setting up bunkers in mosques, and hiding in residential neighborhood, then we can debate who might be at fault for civilian casualties. Until that happens, the blood of the innocents rests squarely on the shoulders of the Baathists and the Jihadists. Democracy cannot be imposed from the top, it has to rise up from the people themselves, as it did with your own struggles in the U.S. After all like France you had your own revolution. The Kurds and the Shiites did rebel in the aftermath of the Gulf War. Read about the inhuman brutality that met them. The desire for freedom is there; it was not imposed from outside. The allies simply removed the dictator who was oppressing them. There is the practical matter that Iraqis don't have much experience running a democracy. The US's first attempt, the Articles of Confederation, were completely ineffective. In the late 1700's the nation switched over to the US Constitution and has been doing much better ever since. And how many national governments has France had? Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good: Iraq's steps toward a free and democratic society are a monumental improvement upon what they had under Saddam. No animals were harmed in the making of the above post... much.
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Fuzzy Hollynoodles  Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0 |
Democracy cannot be imposed from the top, it has to rise up from the people themselves, as it did with your own struggles in the U.S. After all like France you had your own revolution. Hmmm... an old classic comes to my mind! I think I quoted it back in the PZ days also! "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me 
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Misfit  Send message Joined: 21 Jun 01 Posts: 21804 Credit: 2,815,091 RAC: 0
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Hidden story of Rosa Parks photo Man on bus mistaken symbol of segregation  By Peter Applebome NEW YORK TIMES NEWS SERVICE December 9, 2005 RIDGEWOOD, N.J. – Almost everyone has seen the famous study in black and white, one of those rare photographs that enters the collective memory as a snapshot not of a moment, but of an era and maybe something more. At the front of a bus, where black people had never ridden before, is Rosa Parks, head slightly bowed, face turned to the window to her left, seemingly lost in thought as she rides through Montgomery, Ala. In the seat behind her, like the symbol of the old segregated order, is a young white man looking to his right, his face hard, almost expressionless. The two, the only people visible on the bus, seem a few inches and a universe apart, each seemingly looking at and for something utterly different. Everyone knows her. No one knows him. Except for Catherine Chriss, his daughter. And, like his identity, hidden in plain sight, unknown even to the veterans of that era still living, what's most telling about the real story of the black woman and the white man is how much of what we think we know is what we read into the picture, not what's there. The man on the bus, Nicholas C. Chriss, was not some irritated Alabama segregationist preserved for history, but a reporter for United Press International in Atlanta. He died of an aneurysm at the age of 62 in 1990. Parks died at the age of 92 on Oct. 24, a few weeks short of the 50th anniversary of her refusal to give up her seat on the bus to a white man. Catherine Chriss, a journalist currently caring for her three young daughters, said she has been amazed at how ubiquitous the picture has become. "It's everywhere," she said. "Apple used it in their campaign, 'Think Different.' A friend called and said she saw the poster on the bus, the whole bus. It's on the bus my daughter Alison takes to school now. When Alison was in second grade, her classroom had that border with African-American heroes and leaders and there's the picture. She told her teacher that was her granddad up there. She didn't believe her." Nicholas Chriss, who also worked for the Los Angeles Times and the Houston Chronicle, publicly revealed his role in the picture just once. It was three paragraphs in the middle of a 2,183-word article he wrote for the Houston Chronicle in 1986 about his experiences covering the civil rights movement. He said the picture was taken Dec. 21, 1956, the day after the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling that Montgomery's segregated bus system was illegal was put into effect. He said he boarded the bus in downtown Montgomery, and he and Parks were the only riders up front. He wrote: "It was a historic occasion. I was then with the United Press International wire service. A UPI photographer took a picture of Mrs. Parks on the bus. It shows a somber Mrs. Parks seated on the bus looking calmly out the window. Seated just behind her is a hard-eyed white man. Each anniversary of that day, this photograph is brought out of musty files and used in various publications around the world. But to this day no one has ever made clear that it was a reporter, I, covering this event and sitting behind Mrs. Parks, not some sullen white segregationist!" ID: 208623 · |
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Darth Dogbytes™ Send message Joined: 30 Jul 03 Posts: 7512 Credit: 2,021,148 RAC: 0
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Let's start with Guantanamo. Then we'll proceed to the CIA operatives at Abu Gharib. Later, we'll get to better things. Account frozen... ID: 208628 · |
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Misfit Send message Joined: 21 Jun 01 Posts: 21804 Credit: 2,815,091 RAC: 0
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Darth Dogbytes™ Send message Joined: 30 Jul 03 Posts: 7512 Credit: 2,021,148 RAC: 0
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Let's start with Guantanamo. Only if you guano'd your shorts...! Then wore them on your head. Some stylish Vulcan party headress? Account frozen... ID: 208640 · |
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Misfit Send message Joined: 21 Jun 01 Posts: 21804 Credit: 2,815,091 RAC: 0
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Let's start with Guantanamo. But the alcohol was fantastic! ID: 208660 · |
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Darth Dogbytes™ Send message Joined: 30 Jul 03 Posts: 7512 Credit: 2,021,148 RAC: 0
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Let's start with Guantanamo. No, not Iraqi Ale, you never know when that stuff is going to.....oops, Misfit left the party early! Account frozen... ID: 208670 · |
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Misfit Send message Joined: 21 Jun 01 Posts: 21804 Credit: 2,815,091 RAC: 0
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Let's start with Guantanamo. HA! But thanks for the middle east reference. Reminded me of an article I read today. ID: 208678 · |
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Misfit Send message Joined: 21 Jun 01 Posts: 21804 Credit: 2,815,091 RAC: 0
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Iran president sparks criticism in remarks on Israel, Holocaust By Salah Nasrawi ASSOCIATED PRESS December 9, 2005 MECCA, Saudi Arabia – Iran's hard-line president, who recently called for Israel to be "wiped off the map," again sparked a barrage of international criticism yesterday, saying the Jewish state should be moved to Europe and questioning whether the Holocaust took place. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad implied that European countries backed the founding of Israel in the Middle East in 1948 out of guilt over the Nazi genocide. "Some European countries insist on saying that during World War II, Hitler burned millions of Jews and put them in concentration camps," Ahmadinejad said. "Any historian, commentator or scientist who doubts that is taken to prison or gets condemned." "Let's assume what the Europeans say is true. . . . Let's give some land to the Zionists in Europe or in Germany or Austria," he said. "They faced injustice in Europe, so why do the repercussions fall on the Palestinians?" Israel condemned Ahmadinejad's remarks as "outrageous and even racist." The United States denounced them as "appalling and reprehensible." Both Israel and Washington cited Iran's hostility toward Israel as a reason why the Iranian theocracy must be prevented from developing nuclear weapons. Ahmadinejad's remarks yesterday were striking for their venue: a summit of Muslim nations convened in Islam's holiest city, Mecca, to condemn terrorism and extremism and stressing the themes of moderation and tolerance. He has alienated even some conservative allies in Iran, who feel he is taking a go-it-alone stance in domestic politics and hurting Iran abroad with his comments. ID: 208679 · |
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