Political Thread [3] - CLOSED

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Message 42549 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 18:23:01 UTC

The more conservative voices on this thread (like the one who called me a Republican, an insult I can not forgive) have been silent, I believe, to keep from gloating. Indeed, gloating serves no purpose, but neither do the-sky-is-falling comments coming from liberal voices here. Things didn't turn out like many wanted, and we know that Bush will continue as he has but with perhaps some concessions to the fairly close popular vote. So what? Keep making your views known, in posts like these, in letters to the editor, in calls to your elected representatives. Keep discussing national and world events with family and friends. The election is over, but the process of democracy goes on.
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Message 42554 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 18:45:36 UTC - in response to Message 42503.  

> [AP] Kerry concedes. Congratulations to someone...
>

...yes, Democrats are congratulating John Edwards, who will now have the opportunity to step out from under the shadow of Kerry's big French nose...

Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

Fox Sunday (US) at 9PM ET/PT
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Message 42570 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 20:00:55 UTC - in response to Message 42548.  

> LOL I do agree on that. I have wrote it earlier that WW3 was to start in the
> next 4 years. At the same time I think this election was more like a "Bush"
> referendum, and It came pretty close to pass. It is also his last mandate.
> Usualy presidents wants to leave something good behind.

There's no good 'behind' left...Clinton chased it all while he was in office.


> The situation in Irak is so bad that he will have to hand it over to UN
> and world community. He just can't affoard loosing there, and that's
> precisely what is going to happen if he don't manage to bring other strong
> ally in the process of Irak. He will have to be less arogant and closer
> to France, Germany, Canada, etc. The only thing I am affraid is if there is
> another terrorist attack. Who will he blame and attack then ?

Iran, Syria, North Korea...pick any three.


> I also find very strange that Osama appeared on TV 4 days before election
> Knowing that it would help Bush. When you look at it, knowing all the
> friendly
> relationships between the Bush and the Laden, one can really wonder if Osama
> is not actually "working" for GWB...

No, But GWB's policies have done more to funnel more disillusioned Muslims to his cause than any administration prior, so of course he wanted Bush to win.


> 9/11 Was certainly a sad day for Americans, but a very good one for Bush
> and his war mongers. They had been given the best oportunity to do what
> they wanted to do for many years in Irak for all the reasons we can suspect.

The 'war mongers' belonged to the late Reagan and early Bush (41) years. They bided their time for over a decade hoping for an event that would allow them to 'sell' an administration on their doctrine. Hopefully, GWB will see that pre-emptive action requires some forethought (not just planning, but consideration of repercussions)...


> Isn't funny or strange that Osama is still at large after 3 years ? Are the
> Bush administrations really hunting him ? Time will tell, but unfortunately
> innocent people will continue to die before the "real" truth behind all this
> is being discovered.

What truth? The man is "mostly harmless" now. His rantings of earlier days have given way to politically-motivated diatribe. His 'speech' sounded like something one would expect to hear from Yasser Arafat.

Stewie: So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway?

Fox Sunday (US) at 9PM ET/PT
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Message 42573 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 20:16:25 UTC
Last modified: 3 Nov 2004, 20:16:43 UTC

Well although Bush's cronies like to think Osama is "mostly harmless" or "marginalized", from his final "thanks George" video it's obvious that he's taking a new central role in the Arab world. Of course that fits in well with the Bush klan, they have a convenient "Emmanuel Goldstein" around (a la Orwell's "1984") to fire up the moronic masses in a "Two Minute Hate."

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Message 42579 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 20:38:41 UTC

And Now for Something Completely Different
<p>
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Message 42584 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 21:21:48 UTC

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Message 42586 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 21:34:28 UTC

If SETI@Home helps us contact aliens someday, I'm sure they'll want to drop a Death Star laser on the US! ;-)
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Message 42593 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 22:26:22 UTC - in response to Message 42586.  

> If SETI@Home helps us contact aliens someday, I'm sure they'll want to drop a
> Death Star laser on the US! ;-)
>

The fact that you: dislike the winner, dislike the results, dislike the people who voted for President Bush, and perhaps the country as a whole--doesn't change the result.

Your (I'm including a lot of people in that "your") use of jokes, jibes and insults--doesn't change the result.

The threats posted here by people who say they will: change their citizenship, leave the country or go live in a hole somewhere--do not change the result.

What will change the result (in four years, two years for congressmen) is to work for candidates who believe as you do.
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Message 42598 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 23:17:12 UTC - in response to Message 42593.  

Errr, did any of us say we will "change the result" with our complaints, ridicule, invective, etc? Personally it will have little impact for me; anyway I left the country two years ago. I'm sorrier for those that will be saddled with the absurd debt in the US from the psychotic deficit spending of the war etc, and those that are destined to die for myopic & insane Repuke policies (whether the "status quo" terrorism or the war-du-jour).

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Message 42599 - Posted: 3 Nov 2004, 23:19:50 UTC - in response to Message 42598.  
Last modified: 3 Nov 2004, 23:22:16 UTC

> Errr, did any of us say we will "change the result" with our complaints,
> ridicule, invective, etc?

No, just that those things will not change the result. I see you either are not interested in, or have given up on changing the result. That's fine, but maybe some are . . .
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Message 42616 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:11:54 UTC - in response to Message 42599.  

> No, just that those things will not change the result. I see you either are
> not interested in, or have given up on changing the result. That's fine, but
> maybe some are . . .

I'm actually too cynical to think normal channels of "changing the result" are any good in America. I mean, it's just too easy to appeal to people's (esp American's) stupidity, mythology, and fears, and I have to give the Repubs credit for that (in the same way the Goebbel's knew how to play on the German people's fears & mythology in the 1930's).

The lesson for the already moderate-to-right-wing Dems (from the corporate media and right-wing spin machine) is "you'll have to be even more right-wing to 'compete' with us." You can only fight such ignorance with education, but presumably 60 million Bush voters really think Iraq had something to do with 9/11, etc. That's a lot of dumb people to educate, especially with the schools getting worse, "No Child Left Behind" a laughable failure, etc. I think karma will catch up with the US (not to mention the deficit, war expenses, etc).

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Message 42618 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:19:08 UTC - in response to Message 42524.  

> Kerry concedes election to President Bush...
>
> That was the best thing to do for the democrats and for all Americans.
> The country is clearly divided but Bush wons, that's democracy.
> A recount in Ohio wouldn't have done any good to anyone. I just hope
> Bush had learned a few lesson from Irak, and that he is ready to really
> works with European leaders. I think Europe won't be as patient with
> him during his second term...
>
Marc,
Allow me to pick your brain and get your 'international' viewpoint. For the sake of arguement if Bush had NOT invaded Iraq (but still invaded Afganistan) what would the European opinion of him be? Is it negative just because of Iraq or are there other things outside the realm of Iraq?
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Message 42620 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:20:44 UTC - in response to Message 42547.  

> 1996 was the best time the USA had.
>
Well the Padres made the playoffs, however, 1998 was better when they went to the World Series. :)
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Message 42621 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:24:55 UTC - in response to Message 42549.  

Sorry, Tom - I misinterpreted you.
I just can't see the silver lining for the cumulonimbus right now...
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Message 42622 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:31:56 UTC - in response to Message 42616.  
Last modified: 4 Nov 2004, 1:35:01 UTC

> I'm actually too cynical to think normal channels of "changing the result" are
> any good in America. I mean, it's just too easy to appeal to people's (esp
> American's) stupidity, mythology, and fears, and I have to give the Repubs
> credit for that (in the same way the Goebbel's knew how to play on the German
> people's fears & mythology in the 1930's).
>

Then your cynicism plays right into your premise: that normal channels (I presume you mean the political process) will not work. I can guarantee that the inaction you have settled into will not cause change, and if change does come about, it will be by people like you, but who actually do something.

> The lesson for the already moderate-to-right-wing Dems (from the corporate
> media and right-wing spin machine) is "you'll have to be even more right-wing
> to 'compete' with us." You can only fight such ignorance with education, but
> presumably 60 million Bush voters really think Iraq had something to do with
> 9/11, etc. That's a lot of dumb people to educate, especially with the
> schools getting worse, "No Child Left Behind" a laughable failure, etc. I
> think karma will catch up with the US (not to mention the deficit, war
> expenses, etc).
>

Please get your facts right: I voted for Bush and I have said many times that while Iraq was not involved in 9/11, they were (and in places still are) involved in promoting terrorism. And you have no evidence that anywhere near 60 million Bush voters believe that. As for "No Child Left Behind", that program was approved by a large bipartisan majority, and it is still in it's infancy, so how is it a "laughable failure"? And the deficit and war expenses are not as large as WWII, when compared to GNP then and now. So keep pitching them softballs about Bush, but don't give up on effecting change, though I don't agree with your reasons myself.
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Message 42623 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:33:43 UTC - in response to Message 42621.  

> Sorry, Tom - I misinterpreted you.
> I just can't see the silver lining for the cumulonimbus right now...
>

I wasn't really mad. Hell, some of my best friends are Republican.
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Message 42624 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:34:12 UTC - in response to Message 42549.  

> The more conservative voices on this thread (like the one who called me a
> Republican, an insult I can not forgive) have been silent, I believe, to keep
> from gloating. Indeed, gloating serves no purpose, but neither do
> the-sky-is-falling comments coming from liberal voices here. Things didn't
> turn out like many wanted, and we know that Bush will continue as he has but
> with perhaps some concessions to the fairly close popular vote. So what?
> Keep making your views known, in posts like these, in letters to the editor,
> in calls to your elected representatives. Keep discussing national and world
> events with family and friends. The election is over, but the process of
> democracy goes on.
>
Today even anti-Bush Howard Stern told all the Kerry supporters to quit whining and get on with their lives. That no matter who was president it wouldnt change the day-to-day routine of their lives.
One thing our international members have to realize is that for the American people Iraq was just one of many issues we had to consider. For the most part I believe Americans feel that Sadaam had to be removed... at least eventually. Not right after Afganistan and not until Bin Laden was captured but it was an inevitability. Unfortunately for the international community Iraq is the only issue they are seeing (as evident by the posts in this thread). But no matter who won the world isnt going to destroy itself. Regardless of who's president life will go on, controversies will always remain the same, the status quo will continue.
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Message 42626 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:43:39 UTC - in response to Message 42623.  

I wasn't really mad. Hell, some of my best friends are Republican.
No, it had to be said. I get really passionate about things like politics, philosophy, religion, etc.. I didn't check if I called you a Republican straight-out but I'm sure I implied it somewhere.

Like I said, I see the thundercloud but not what's behind it.

FTR, I'm a Bloomberg Republican. I'd have voted him in without a second thought.
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Message 42627 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:56:15 UTC - in response to Message 42626.  

> FTR, I'm a Bloomberg Republican. I'd have voted him in without a second
> thought.
>
Since we're confessing, 12 years ago I hoped that Hilary would run instead of Bill (didn't trust him but I though she was smart and capable). Since, I've had second thoughts about her, but a number of Dems in Hawai‘i have gotten my vote.
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Message 42628 - Posted: 4 Nov 2004, 1:58:59 UTC - in response to Message 42627.  

> Since we're confessing, 12 years ago I hoped that Hilary would run instead of
> Bill (didn't trust him but I though she was smart and capable). Since, I've
> had second thoughts about her, but a number of Dems in Hawai‘i have gotten my
> vote.
>
Just wait 4 years. Bush will be termed out and Cheney wont run. I wouldnt be suprised if in 2008 we see Colin Powell vs Hillary Clinton.
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