Notre Dame Cathedral IN FLAMES!!!

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Message 1991193 - Posted: 23 Apr 2019, 12:28:49 UTC

Terrible!! I was almost in a state of shock when I heard it. A nice piece of heritage has disappeared with the Notre Dame :'(
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Message 1991207 - Posted: 23 Apr 2019, 21:10:48 UTC
Last modified: 23 Apr 2019, 21:23:38 UTC

Well, the damage was not all that bad.
Now it's about restoring the roof and the spire.
This has been proposed already using glass, a material and a technique not used when Notre Dame was built.

Since I don't think many will miss the old look of the roof it's seems to me like a great idea.
But there will be many more proposals to consider and many will have opinions about them.
Like the last time when Victor Hugo in his novel "Notre-Dame de Paris" (1831), wrote about the dilapidated house of worship that got to appear in a romantic glow; and the cathedral later was subject to a thorough renovation with a new spire.
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Message 1991216 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 0:26:28 UTC - in response to Message 1991207.  

Well, the damage was not all that bad.
Now it's about restoring the roof and the spire.
This has been proposed already using glass, a material and a technique not used when Notre Dame was built.

Since I don't think many will miss the old look of the roof it's seems to me like a great idea.
But there will be many more proposals to consider and many will have opinions about them.
Like the last time when Victor Hugo in his novel "Notre-Dame de Paris" (1831), wrote about the dilapidated house of worship that got to appear in a romantic glow; and the cathedral later was subject to a thorough renovation with a new spire.

Interesting, but what does all that light do to the artwork inside that belongs in dim light?
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Message 1991217 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 0:36:41 UTC - in response to Message 1991207.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 0:41:09 UTC

Why a glass roof, all that will be seen is the reverse side of the vaulted stone ceiling, and I understand that the roof needs to be heavy to press down on the walls, for structural stability.
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Message 1991218 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 0:37:23 UTC - in response to Message 1991216.  

Well, the damage was not all that bad.
Now it's about restoring the roof and the spire.
This has been proposed already using glass, a material and a technique not used when Notre Dame was built.

Since I don't think many will miss the old look of the roof it's seems to me like a great idea.
But there will be many more proposals to consider and many will have opinions about them.
Like the last time when Victor Hugo in his novel "Notre-Dame de Paris" (1831), wrote about the dilapidated house of worship that got to appear in a romantic glow; and the cathedral later was subject to a thorough renovation with a new spire.

Interesting, but what does all that light do to the artwork inside that belongs in dim light?
Maybe this:)
https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/gothic-cathedral-height-light-and-color
However, in the northern and western regions of the continent, cloudy days and less intense summer heat were common so designers developed a style that attempted to maximize interior light and uninterrupted interior heights. Architects sought a style that would provide larger windows to illuminate the buildings' interiors. Because a cathedral nave flooded with light would have a dramatic effect on the faithful, vast window space became a necessary characteristic of the Gothic style and responded to one of the goals of a growing and dominant religion in the medieval era.
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Message 1991220 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 0:54:51 UTC - in response to Message 1991217.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 1:01:58 UTC

Why a glass roof, all that will be seen is the reverse side of the vaulted stone ceiling, and I understand that the roof needs to be heavy to press down on the walls, for structural stability.
Que?
It's true that the roof stabilise the walls. But not by it's heavy weight as it was built at the time.
They also used lead to protect to roof from rain but at that time copper was rare and expensive that churches was built with in later epoques.
In France they have already restored other old buildings like churches with much lighter materials such as glass and with frameworks with light steel alloys. Think house of cards.
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Message 1991223 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 0:58:08 UTC

At least the rain water coming off that glass won't be lead contaminated like it was off the original lead roof. ;-)

Cheers.
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Message 1991224 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 1:07:28 UTC - in response to Message 1991220.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 1:15:26 UTC

The illustration has a caption, "Glass roof would allow natural light to illuminate the space below",

Why does the space below need illumination, as I said before all you can see from there is the reverse side of the vaulted ceiling. It's not a space where people go and would not, without modification, allow more light into the nave.

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Message 1991225 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 1:18:55 UTC - in response to Message 1991224.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 1:24:33 UTC

The illustration has a caption, "Glass roof would allow natural light to illuminate the space below",
Why does the space below need illumination, as I said before all you can see from there is the reverse side of the vaulted ceiling. It's not a space where people go and would not, without modification, allow more light into the nave.
Have you been to Notre Dame or any other Gothic cathedral?
The reverse side of the vaulted ceiling is very visible when looking up to the roof.
I'm certain that the builders back then would have used transparent materials if they had the knowledge.
The very idea when building them was to make a building with as much light as possible.
Heavenly light if you like.

The picture from Notre Dame that you just linked doesn't show how dark it really is when you are there. And they didn't have so many candles or light bulbs as we can have now at the time cathedrals was built.
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Message 1991228 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 2:10:20 UTC

Btw. Only last night I saw a BBC programme from a serie called "Civilisations".
Part 7 of 9: Color and light.
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x75ix8e
Professor Simon Schama shows how color and light influenced art. He starts his journey with Gothic cathedrals, shows the 16th century Venice, talks about the Baroque, takes us to Japan to finish in the Matice Chapel in Nice. Man's power and willingness to create something larger than himself distinguishes us from the animals. Expressing oneself through art, architecture or language are different parts of what created civilizations and a central part of being human.
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Message 1991229 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 2:13:41 UTC

I could see solar panels for the roof.
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Message 1991233 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 3:30:06 UTC - in response to Message 1991230.  

I also Googled and found this.
Notre Dame works to reduce carbon footprint with new solar panel array. ... No Roof? No Problem. Community-Shared Solar Offers Solar Energy for All.
Oh that was Notre Dame in the US:)
But for the Notre Dame roof in Paris? Sounds actually very great. Then you get all the power you want to light the interior of Notre Dame. And even get revenues to pay for further renovations, that will always be needed!
If someone also can come up how to make the solar panels look grey like lead, then we have a winner:)
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Message 1991247 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 5:45:09 UTC - in response to Message 1991225.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 5:49:14 UTC

The illustration has a caption, "Glass roof would allow natural light to illuminate the space below",
Why does the space below need illumination, as I said before all you can see from there is the reverse side of the vaulted ceiling. It's not a space where people go and would not, without modification, allow more light into the nave.

Have you been to Notre Dame or any other Gothic cathedral?

A lot, including Notre Dame and Beauvais* in France, most of the English ones, several in Italy and the US.
I took the reverse as the side not normally seen by the public. The face being what you can see from the Nave as in that picture.

The reverse side of the vaulted ceiling is very visible when looking up to the roof.
I'm certain that the builders back then would have used transparent materials if they had the knowledge.
The very idea when building them was to make a building with as much light as possible.
Heavenly light if you like.

The picture from Notre Dame that you just linked doesn't show how dark it really is when you are there. And they didn't have so many candles or light bulbs as we can have now at the time cathedrals was built.

You do realise that in all Gothic cathedrals there are 2 roofs. The external protective one, that burnt at the Notre Dame and the inner Flaunted one that you see above you in the Nave. At the crossing the inner roof is sometimes made into a Dome as in St. Paul's London and the Cattedrale di Santa Maria del Fiore in Firenze IT.

*Beauvais, was the nearest city to the NATO Ace High Paris North station. also site of R101 accident.
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Message 1991248 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 6:31:36 UTC - in response to Message 1991247.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 6:48:20 UTC

You do realise that in all Gothic cathedrals there are 2 roofs
Of course. Where else could "la forêt" in Notre Dame be?

Lots of heavy oak timber to support the upper very heavy roof coated with lead...

hmm. St. Paul's in London is not a Gothic church.
However I have been to Chichester Cathedral that is one.
And there are no Gothic churches with a dome. A roof is not a dome and not built as one.
And yes. We have Lund's and Skara's cathedrals built here about the same time and with the same roof construction as Notre Dame.
Actually none of our churches are built with a dome and Riddarholmskyrkan in Stockholm lost it's spire, just as the Notre Dame did now, in a fire in 1835.
Dome constructions were perfected by the Romans and Pantheon in Rome is a perfect example.
During the Middle Ages there were no churches built with a dome.
In the Renaissance however domes got popular again. Without double roof of course.

And yes. I have been to many other Gothic churches in Europe as well.
And Roman churches/temples and Renaissance churches and can tell the difference.
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Message 1991249 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 6:42:42 UTC - in response to Message 1991248.  

You do realise that in all Gothic cathedrals there are 2 roofs
Of course. Where else could "la forêt" in Notre Dame be?

Lots of heavy oak timber to support the upper very heavy roof coated with lead...

hmm. St. Paul's in London is not a Gothic church.
However I have been to Chichester Cathedral that is one.
And there are no Gothic churches with a dome. A roof is not a dome and not built as one.
And yes. We have Lund's and Skara's cathedrals built here about the same time and with the same roof construction as Notre Dame.
Dome constructions were perfected by the Romans and Pantheon in Rome is a perfect example.
During the Middle Ages there were no churches built with a dome.
In the Renaissance however domes got popular again. Without double roof of course.

They have double roofs
St Paul's

And the Florence https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/renaissance-reformation/early-renaissance1/sculpture-architecture-florence/v/brunelleschi-dome-of-the-cathedral-of-florence-1420-36 at 2:00 min into video.
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Message 1991255 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 7:47:23 UTC - in response to Message 1991249.  
Last modified: 24 Apr 2019, 8:03:19 UTC

OK, I admit. I'm not a churchbuilder:)
However I have to say that the Florence dome with that lower roof is not really supporting the dome.
Nor St Paul's dome.
And that the Florence church was among the first that built a dome in the Renaissance.
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/italy/articles/16-interesting-facts-about-florence-cathedral/
And San Pietro in Rome have no lower roof at all.
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Message 1991265 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 8:33:20 UTC - in response to Message 1991249.  

Wikipedia describes how and why the two domes were built:

One of the design problems that confronted Wren was to create a landmark dome, tall enough to visually replace the lost tower of St Paul's, while at the same time appearing visually satisfying when viewed from inside the building. Wren planned a double-shelled dome, as at St Peter's Basilica. His solution to the visual problem was to separate the heights of the inner and outer dome to a much greater extent than had been done by Michelangelo at St Peter's, drafting both as catenary curves, rather than as hemispheres. Between the inner and outer domes, Wren inserted a brick cone which supports both the timbers of the outer, lead-covered dome and the weight of the ornate stone lantern that rises above it. Both the cone and the inner dome are 18 inches thick and are supported by wrought iron chains at intervals in the brick cone and around the cornice of the peristyle of the inner dome to prevent spreading and cracking.
From what I remember, you can get a clear view of the interior construction as you climb in sequence to the Whispering Gallery (internal, base of lower dome); the Stone Gallery (external, base of upper dome); and the Golden Gallery (external, above upper dome) - all open to the public.
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Message 1991273 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 10:40:59 UTC

Since constructions of domes and if they are supported in some ways or not is of course off topic in this thread.
And I think we all can agree that Notre Dame has no real dome.
From the outside the roof looks flat like it does on most buildings and has no special features.
However from the inside it looks different where you see vaults as you can see in this picture.

From what I can understand the shape of these vaults are "only" decorative and built to give an impression of a roofless or at very least a more spacious building.
This will of course have to be considered when Notre Dame now have to be restored.
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Message 1991295 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 14:28:12 UTC - in response to Message 1991273.  

The vaulted arch ceilings allows the width of the nave to be wider than other methods.
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Message 1991301 - Posted: 24 Apr 2019, 15:10:21 UTC - in response to Message 1991295.  

Yes. And now, when to come of think of it, the outer roof has almost the shape of a vault.
It's more like a triangular roof that most buildings we have today, but it have the same effect to dislocate stress more even.
Then next question. Why did they build two roofs on top of each other with vaults?
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