What would you do? I haven't yet purchased a 3950X processor due to our current pandemic, what should I buy as an alternative to get my 2nd rig going, or upgade my 1st rig?

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Message 2045889 - Posted: 19 Apr 2020, 21:43:01 UTC
Last modified: 19 Apr 2020, 22:11:02 UTC

My current rig has an i7-990X processor (yes, 1st gen Intel) which I have running at 100MHz over it's base speed of 3.47GHz and using only 9 of it's 12 threads so I can continue on with other uses of a PC. I am semi-satisfied with it's performance after 10 years, but would also like to see what it can do performance wise with an upgrade. And yes, I'm considering the performance of the SETI and other projects like Milkyway and Einstein, as well as for general use.

I am undecided on whether to purchase a new CPU at a lessor rate for my 2nd rig which has nothing yet, or to purchase an upgrade for my original PC from an i7-990X to an ....?.... which will necessitate a change in motherboard and ram also. So... let's consider the options.

Original PC
1. AMD Ryzen 7 3700X - $295 (Amazon), ASUS Prime B450-Plus Motherboard AM4 - $100 (Amazon), CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) SDRAM Desktop Memory Model CMK16GX4M2B3200C16R - $88 (Newegg) = $483+ (total)
...and still wait for my 2nd rig to get operational... or...

2nd PC (ideal choice)
2. AMD Ryzen 9 3950X CPU - $738 (Amazon & Newegg) 16-core/32-threads
...and keep my original PC as is with no changes... or...

2nd PC (alternative choice)
3. AMD Ryzen 7 3700X CPU - $295 (Amazon) 8-core/16-threads
...and keep my original PC as is with no changes... and save the $443 dollars until this pandemic thing is over with... or...

GO FOR BROKE!!
Upgrade my original PC (as above) and also get the alternative (3700X) CPU for my 2nd PC.

My original PC specs:
i7-990X CPU @ 3.57GHz (100MHz O.C.)
Noctua NH-D15 CPU Cooling Fan (w/2 fans)
ASUS Sabertooth X58 Motherboard
1 - EVGA RTX 2060 GPU (non-Super)
16GB Kingston Memory (O.C. to 1600MHz)
2TB Samsung SSD
1TB Hitachi HDD
120GB Crucial SSD
3 - Noctua case cooling fans
EVGA SuperNOVA 80+ Gold 650W PSU
Antec Case (10 years+ old)

My 2nd PC specs:
...CPU yet to be determined...
Noctua NH-U12A CPU Cooling Fan (w/2 fans)
ASUS PrimeX470-Pro Motherboard
2 - EVGA RTX 2070 Super GPUs
32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3200MHz (w/CL14) memory
1TB Samsung 970 Plus NVME SSD
2TB Samsung SSD
2TB WD Black HDD
EVGA SuperNOVA 80+ Gold 1000W PSU
CoolerMaster H500M Case (w/2 additional 200mm case fans)

What would you do? Do you have another option that I should consider?

Also, in my 3rd choice of "GO FOR BROKE!!", I would be interested to know if my choice of the same CPU, yet different motherboards and memories, would perform at nearly identical levels?
George

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Message 2045893 - Posted: 19 Apr 2020, 22:16:28 UTC - in response to Message 2045889.  

My current rig has an i7-990X processor (yes, 1st gen Intel)
Actually 1st generation Intel CPU would be the 4004, but the first of the current generation would be the 8086 (where we get the x86 from in present CPU/software designations).


2. AMD Ryzen 9 3950X CPU - $738 (Amazon & Newegg) 16-core/32-threads
Better yet is the 3900X, at least from a price point of view.
Here in Australia
Ryzen 9 3900X $35 per thread
Ryzen 9 3950X $45 per thread
If you have workloads that can make use of the extra cores & threads, then it is worth the extra price. If not, then it's not. And if you don't need the number of cores & threads the 3900X provides, the 3800X or even the 3600X would be the way to go.


Noctua NH-U12A CPU Cooling Fan (w/2 fans)
I don't know how things are priced over there, but here for the price of one those Noctua's, you can get a damn good AIO (All In One) water cooler unit.


32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3200MHz (w/CL14) memory
Depending on what projects you plan to run, with that many cores that won't be nearly enough RAM. eg Rosetta has Tasks that require 1.3GB of RAM, they will soon be releasing Tasks that may require up to 4GB of RAM.
If you were to run Rosetta on that system, and wanted to usal all cores & threads, for the 3900X you'd need 64GB of RAM (and that's a bare minimum for that CPU- even then 128GB might be necessary under certain circumstances) and for the 3900X 128GB of RAM (the amount required even at the most likely worst case would be less than that, but you need to use matching capacity/timing /brand modules to avoid issues, and for best memory performance).
So you'd need to decide how many cores & threads you will gt, then lok at projects you are interested in & see what their maximum RAM requirements are, and add RAM accordingly.
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Message 2045902 - Posted: 19 Apr 2020, 22:43:16 UTC - in response to Message 2045893.  

My current rig has an i7-990X processor (yes, 1st gen Intel)
Actually 1st generation Intel CPU would be the 4004, but the first of the current generation would be the 8086 (where we get the x86 from in present CPU/software designations).

2. AMD Ryzen 9 3950X CPU - $738 (Amazon & Newegg) 16-core/32-threads
Better yet is the 3900X, at least from a price point of view.
Here in Australia
Ryzen 9 3900X $35 per thread
Ryzen 9 3950X $45 per thread
If you have workloads that can make use of the extra cores & threads, then it is worth the extra price. If not, then it's not. And if you don't need the number of cores & threads the 3900X provides, the 3800X or even the 3600X would be the way to go.

Noctua NH-U12A CPU Cooling Fan (w/2 fans)
I don't know how things are priced over there, but here for the price of one those Noctua's, you can get a damn good AIO (All In One) water cooler unit.

32GB G.Skill Trident Z Neo DDR4-3200MHz (w/CL14) memory
Depending on what projects you plan to run, with that many cores that won't be nearly enough RAM. eg Rosetta has Tasks that require 1.3GB of RAM, they will soon be releasing Tasks that may require up to 4GB of RAM.
If you were to run Rosetta on that system, and wanted to usal all cores & threads, for the 3900X you'd need 64GB of RAM (and that's a bare minimum for that CPU- even then 128GB might be necessary under certain circumstances) and for the 3900X 128GB of RAM (the amount required even at the most likely worst case would be less than that, but you need to use matching capacity/timing /brand modules to avoid issues, and for best memory performance).
So you'd need to decide how many cores & threads you will gt, then lok at projects you are interested in & see what their maximum RAM requirements are, and add RAM accordingly.


1st - Point well taken on the 1st gen Intel. I bow to your supremacy.

2nd - in the U.S. the price difference per thread is $5 U.S. dollars, still significant, but less so.

3rd - As for the Noctua cooling fan versus an AIO, I already have the Noctua so I think it will be okay. I'll have to wait and see.

4th - I am puzzled at how you know what the memory requirements are for individual projects, such as what you spoke of. While I don't think I'll be running Rosetta any time soon, how would I know what the memory requirements are for Einstein and/or Milkyway? Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

Thanks Grant for your insights.
George

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Message 2045910 - Posted: 19 Apr 2020, 23:29:27 UTC - in response to Message 2045902.  

4th - I am puzzled at how you know what the memory requirements are for individual projects, such as what you spoke of.
I only know of 2.
Seti, uses bugger all RAM. Rosetta uses lots, to huge amounts, and soon to be massively huge amounts for some Tasks.

Projects (ideally) have a FAQ or link or blurb on their join up page that spells out their system requirements (OS, CPU, RAM, GPU storage etc). Unfortunately in many cases it's matter of looking in their forums for people posting about issues they are having and seeing what the responses are. Or dealing with issues as they crop up after you have joined (or both).
Less than ideal.
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Message 2045917 - Posted: 20 Apr 2020, 0:19:31 UTC - in response to Message 2045910.  
Last modified: 20 Apr 2020, 0:20:16 UTC

Thanks Grant for your response. I've taken the chance to write an email to the Milkyway folks and ask them if there is a way to determine the memory requirements based upon CPU choices and operating systems (Windows -vs- Linux). I hope I can get a reply reasonably soon.

You've given me a great deal to think about, and for that I am eternally grateful.

Regards,
George

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Message 2045959 - Posted: 20 Apr 2020, 7:32:17 UTC

Einstein needs a lot. I have 16GB on a W3670 (Xeon version at 3.33MHz, not so unlike your CPU) and ditto on a Ryzen 1700. Cannot use more the 7-8 cores (3 for GPU assistence) to avoid problems when using Einstein.
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Message 2045961 - Posted: 20 Apr 2020, 8:01:35 UTC - in response to Message 2045959.  

Einstein needs a lot. I have 16GB on a W3670 (Xeon version at 3.33MHz, not so unlike your CPU) and ditto on a Ryzen 1700. Cannot use more the 7-8 cores (3 for GPU assistence) to avoid problems when using Einstein.


Had waiting for memory messages with Einstein on my TR 1950 with 32GB.
Kevin


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Message 2046029 - Posted: 20 Apr 2020, 17:00:24 UTC - in response to Message 2045910.  

4th - I am puzzled at how you know what the memory requirements are for individual projects, such as what you spoke of.
I only know of 2.
Seti, uses bugger all RAM. Rosetta uses lots, to huge amounts, and soon to be massively huge amounts for some Tasks.

Projects (ideally) have a FAQ or link or blurb on their join up page that spells out their system requirements (OS, CPU, RAM, GPU storage etc). Unfortunately in many cases it's matter of looking in their forums for people posting about issues they are having and seeing what the responses are. Or dealing with issues as they crop up after you have joined (or both).
Less than ideal.

I'll chime in with how much RAM the 2.07 GW cpu app takes on Einstein. As much as 2.1GB per task on some jobs. But more typically 1.2GB per cpu task. If you are going for a lot of cores, then you need to match that with a lot of memory or what is the point? You won't be able to use all the cores you have on most projects.
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Message 2046087 - Posted: 20 Apr 2020, 22:24:21 UTC - in response to Message 2046029.  
Last modified: 20 Apr 2020, 22:24:59 UTC

If you are going for a lot of cores, then you need to match that with a lot of memory or what is the point? You won't be able to use all the cores you have on most projects.
Yep. If you're not going to make use of the cores, then why spend the money on them? If you are going to use them, then you need to spend the money on enough RAM to be able to use them.
The other option is to run multiple projects- one or 2 with high RAM requirements, the rest with low RAM requirements and carefully manage the workload by limiting the number of cores/threads a particular project can use till the resource share settles down (and managing things can often make that take longer..).
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Message 2046187 - Posted: 21 Apr 2020, 14:05:45 UTC
Last modified: 21 Apr 2020, 14:46:57 UTC

Gentlemen, I thank you for your responses, and yes... it does give me a lot to think about. But you may be missing the point a bit. I had said:
4th - I am puzzled at how you know what the memory requirements are for individual projects, such as what you spoke of. While I don't think I'll be running Rosetta any time soon, how would I know what the memory requirements are for Einstein and/or Milkyway? Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

I would like to know how you people had figured this out. I spent all last night reading every fine print, access with links, and trying to figure out (with no success) how you have come up with the numbers such as 1.2GB of ram on a typical CPU task on Einstein, or even 2.1GB of ram on some 2.07 GW CPU tasks on Einstein.
Grant had told me:
Projects (ideally) have a FAQ or link or blurb on their join up page that spells out their system requirements (OS, CPU, RAM, GPU storage etc). Unfortunately in many cases it's matter of looking in their forums for people posting about issues they are having and seeing what the responses are. Or dealing with issues as they crop up after you have joined (or both).
Less than ideal.

I have read many of the forums posts, but quite frankly if I have no idea what exactly I'm looking for, it can take weeks, if not months, to find something that may be useful. So, I repeat myself:
Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

I realize that I am just a layman when it comes to computer science, but I'm not dumb. I don't have the ability to analyze computer lingo for what seems to me "reading between the lines". I'm sorry if I seem a bit frustrated, but I'm really trying to learn something that I think is important. So please, help me understand. If there is not a way to decipher the ram requirements, I will understand.

Thank you for understanding.
George

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Message 2046191 - Posted: 21 Apr 2020, 14:46:20 UTC - in response to Message 2046187.  

Gentlemen, I thank you for your responses, and yes... it does give me a lot to think about. But you may be missing the point a bit. I had said:
4th - I am puzzled at how you know what the memory requirements are for individual projects, such as what you spoke of. While I don't think I'll be running Rosetta any time soon, how would I know what the memory requirements are for Einstein and/or Milkyway? Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

I would like to know how you people had figured this out. I spent all last night reading every fine print, access with links, and trying to figure out (with no success) how you have come up with the numbers such as 1.2GB of ram on a typical CPU task on Einstein, or even 2.1GB of ram on some 2.07 GW CPU tasks on Einstein.
Grant had told me:
Projects (ideally) have a FAQ or link or blurb on their join up page that spells out their system requirements (OS, CPU, RAM, GPU storage etc). Unfortunately in many cases it's matter of looking in their forums for people posting about issues they are having and seeing what the responses are. Or dealing with issues as they crop up after you have joined (or both).
Less than ideal.

I have read many of the forums posts, but quite frankly if I have no idea what exactly I'm looking for. It can take weeks, if not months, to find something that may be useful. So, I repeat myself:
Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

I realize that I am just a layman when it comes to computer science, but I'm not dumb. I don't have the ability to analyze computer lingo for what seems to me "reading between the lines". I'm sorry if I seem a bit frustrated, but I'm really trying to learn something that I think is important. So please, help me understand. If there is not a way to decipher the ram requirements, I will understand.

Thank you for understanding.


it's from first hand experience, not reading documentation. they just ran the jobs from the project and then looked at how much ram the application was using on the system.
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Message 2046213 - Posted: 21 Apr 2020, 20:37:53 UTC - in response to Message 2046187.  

Gentlemen, I thank you for your responses, and yes... it does give me a lot to think about. But you may be missing the point a bit. I had said:
4th - I am puzzled at how you know what the memory requirements are for individual projects, such as what you spoke of. While I don't think I'll be running Rosetta any time soon, how would I know what the memory requirements are for Einstein and/or Milkyway? Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

I would like to know how you people had figured this out. I spent all last night reading every fine print, access with links, and trying to figure out (with no success) how you have come up with the numbers such as 1.2GB of ram on a typical CPU task on Einstein, or even 2.1GB of ram on some 2.07 GW CPU tasks on Einstein.
Grant had told me:
Projects (ideally) have a FAQ or link or blurb on their join up page that spells out their system requirements (OS, CPU, RAM, GPU storage etc). Unfortunately in many cases it's matter of looking in their forums for people posting about issues they are having and seeing what the responses are. Or dealing with issues as they crop up after you have joined (or both).
Less than ideal.

I have read many of the forums posts, but quite frankly if I have no idea what exactly I'm looking for, it can take weeks, if not months, to find something that may be useful. So, I repeat myself:
Is there something that I can look up? ...or is there a formula I can use?

I realize that I am just a layman when it comes to computer science, but I'm not dumb. I don't have the ability to analyze computer lingo for what seems to me "reading between the lines". I'm sorry if I seem a bit frustrated, but I'm really trying to learn something that I think is important. So please, help me understand. If there is not a way to decipher the ram requirements, I will understand.

Thank you for understanding.

No you can't take a look at a project and tell from the apps how long any one task is going to run. Depends on the parameter set the scientist assigns to the task. We are simply giving you actual RAM usage for tasks that we are currently crunching. Easy to see if you just open up the System Monitor and scroll down the list to any running job and it tells you right there how much memory it is currently consuming.

There is a project called WUProp@home that lists the current running times for tasks at various projects.
http://wuprop.boinc-af.org/results/duree.py?fabricant=Intel&type=Core+i7+%28Skylake%29&modele=i7-6700K+%28HT+enabled%29&tri=projet&sort=asc
But I can't find anywhere anything about how much memory a task requires on the website.
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Message 2046227 - Posted: 21 Apr 2020, 22:35:00 UTC - in response to Message 2046187.  
Last modified: 21 Apr 2020, 22:53:31 UTC

I have read many of the forums posts, but quite frankly if I have no idea what exactly I'm looking for, it can take weeks, if not months, to find something that may be useful. So, I repeat myself:
Is there something that I can look up?
Probably the closest thing there is to a system requirements list for various projects is the SETI orphans thread here in Number Crunching where as people try out different projects post their findings there as time goes by.

The other option is to start a Thread in the Questions and Answers, Getting started section (as no Credit is required to post) of the project you are interested in asking about the RAM, storage, network bandwidth, Task deadlines etc requirements of the project.




Probably one of the most difficult things for ex Seti crunchers to wrap their heads around is that you don't need a cache at all if the project you are working for is stable. If it has the odd issue, then even a half day cache is plenty to get you through a couple of hours here or there.
The whole reason for a cache was so that if a project runs out of work or goes MIA for a while, you still have work to do. If the project is stable, no need for a cache. If you have a system that only has network access every few days, then that's about the only reason that i can think of for needing any sort of cache larger than half a day.

And If you crunch for more than 1 project, especially so if you're signed up to 3 or more- there is no need for any cache at all. If one project goes down or short of work, you will still have work from the other project(s). When the other project comes back online/has work again, your Resource Share settings will balance out the debt owed to that project.
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Message 2046233 - Posted: 21 Apr 2020, 23:37:04 UTC - in response to Message 2046213.  

I thank you Keith once again for your valuable insight, and for the link to "wuprop.boinc-af.org". I have finally found what I am looking for.

Under the Einstein project you will find what I've been looking for. Under the Project tab (on the left hand side), you can find the RAM requirements and Disk Space requirements based upon the application task being run, the platform (Windows, Linux, etc.) and CPU being used, and if necessary the GPU also. In my case, depending on the task being run, memory use can run from a low MB to well over a GB. Since this is a per-task memory & disk space requirement, I presume it is also a per-core requirement as well since we use multiple cores for projects with differing names for each task.

Thank you once again Keith. You're my hero!!
George

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Message 2046234 - Posted: 21 Apr 2020, 23:50:23 UTC - in response to Message 2046227.  

Thank you Grant for your help in this somewhat loosely titled forum post that got off topic. I was fixed on finding a source for the memory requirements for each project and lost track of what the title was supposed mean. But that's life, right?

I have since found what supposedly is a reliable way of determining the memory requirements and disk space usage of each task chosen for each project. I've posted it in a response to Keith's post.

I will post in a new forum thread with appropriate title for everyone to read with a little better explanation.

Thanks again, Grant.
George

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Message 2046237 - Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 0:24:38 UTC - in response to Message 2046233.  

I thank you Keith once again for your valuable insight, and for the link to "wuprop.boinc-af.org". I have finally found what I am looking for.
That is a useful site, although you must checkout the graphs for it to really be of use- they show the absolute maximums, and how close (or far from) the more normal values those maximums are.
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Message 2046241 - Posted: 22 Apr 2020, 0:52:02 UTC - in response to Message 2046233.  

I thank you Keith once again for your valuable insight, and for the link to "wuprop.boinc-af.org". I have finally found what I am looking for.

Under the Einstein project you will find what I've been looking for. Under the Project tab (on the left hand side), you can find the RAM requirements and Disk Space requirements based upon the application task being run, the platform (Windows, Linux, etc.) and CPU being used, and if necessary the GPU also. In my case, depending on the task being run, memory use can run from a low MB to well over a GB. Since this is a per-task memory & disk space requirement, I presume it is also a per-core requirement as well since we use multiple cores for projects with differing names for each task.

Thank you once again Keith. You're my hero!!

Glad I could help George.
Not sure how I missed the RAM tab on the menu. Exactly what you were looking for I see. But the tables show the averages. The charts show the outliers. Especially so with Rosetta I see. Fair warning they are talking about 4GB of RAM needed for the upcoming large molecules at Rosetta.
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Message 2046458 - Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 1:05:48 UTC

I think a page like https://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/List_of_projects_by_system_requirements would be useful if it was updated !
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Message 2046463 - Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 1:30:15 UTC - in response to Message 2046458.  

I think a page like https://boinc.berkeley.edu/wiki/List_of_projects_by_system_requirements would be useful if it was updated !
I found that one, and it's worse than useless. Most of the notes links are no longer valid.
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Message 2046487 - Posted: 23 Apr 2020, 10:03:31 UTC - in response to Message 2045889.  


What would you do? Do you have another option that I should consider?


I would look at my budget and decide but I would go with at least 32GB of ram in all cases

The 3700x seems to be the "sweet spot" of price vs. performance vs. cpu core/thread counts.

If your goal is maximum production on CPU-based projects then the more cores/threads you buy the better.
I have run the 3900x and am running the 3950x because it has more cores/threads.

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Message boards : Number crunching : What would you do? I haven't yet purchased a 3950X processor due to our current pandemic, what should I buy as an alternative to get my 2nd rig going, or upgade my 1st rig?


 
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